Swait,
By finishing the turn with this move with pressure on the tail end of the board at the end of the turn and this becomes your speed control.
Pat, how does applying pressure to the tail produce speed control? I see that producing different results. In my experience if increase pressure on an edged board at the finish of a turn, the board accelerates or launches (like your ollie example) which would not seem to be the desired result in the steeps. Just need further description…
thanks!
J,
Let me try to explain it a different way.
If you slowly shift the pressure to your tail by extending your front leg and flexing your back knee (sitting in the back seat) and leave it in this position, I would agree that the board will want to eccellerate and increase the speed. We see this is many beginer or intermediate riders who get going to fast. It is thier instinct to sit back rather than use thier front foot to initiate the turn for speed control.
The difference in what I was trying to explain is that the “shuffle” move to pressure the tail of the board at the end of the turn is a “quick” shuffle move that makes the tail “Grip” into the snow to allow the board to almost go uphill slightly, then you need to shift your weight (pressure) back to center so you can shift your CM across your board to get ready to start the next turn.
Does this help your understanding of my original expalantion? I would encourage you to play with this once you get on snow.
Pat
As a self proclaimed steep lover, I absolutely second Pat’s approach (in the right situations). What he is describing creates a very snappy turn in which you are using the resistance of the tail, both flex and grip, to control your speed. It is not the only way to ride steeps, and not always the best way, but it is highly effective in the right snow and feels awesome.
BTW, what kind of “steeps” were we originally talking about? I noticed a Ski Liberty comment. Are we talking liberty steeps or whistler steeps?
Pat - Out off all the ideas and concepts listed above, I got the most out of your post.
The question that comes to my mind immediately about steeps is what is the most efficient way to conquer? Steeps equals speed. Run width is also a very important factor. As stated previously the condition of the snow is a contributor as well.
Without seeing the exact terrain in question, I would tend to lean towards teaching the short radius dynamic skidded turn. The skiding would scrub speed and combining completed turns (parallel to the fall line) would result in speed control.
Carving on super steep terrain takes a tremendous amount of skill and nerve. Carving is also (depending on the individual’s sidecut) a tactic that would require a larger radius turn shape which equates to greater speed and the need for a wider run.
It has been said that the hardest thing to do efficiently and properly is the short radius dynamic skidded turn. Add super steep and you’ve got two very hard task to own.
I like Pat’s idea to start on easier terrain and develop the individual ranges of motion(f&e, rot., fore/aft, and toe-heel). A focus on board performance coupled with the separated ROMs would give the student understanding of what needs to be accomplished. Someone mentions flat spin 3’s above. Great way to highlight f&e and torsional steering. Both of which are very present in the s.rad. dynamic skidded turn. Fore-aft excercises through the traverse and turn also spot on. Someone brought up sideslipping early on in this post. I seen side slipping as an emergency tactic. However, it would still be a good thing to teach (counter rotation would fit well here too). Edge control and edge angle through tranverses. I see making quick, solid transitions as a necessary key to success as well.
I’ve used the tail move before and found it is great for softer/crud snow conditions, but on icy, coral reef type stuff, the flatter you keep the base, the better. This doesn’t mean you don’t use fore/aft pressure management moves, just w/ much less edging and more pivoting.
A great drill to practice what Pat is preaching is the ‘wheelie drill’ which i think is explained one or two 32 degrees ago.
JB and Thomas,
I absoloutly agree with you both. Your contributions and suggestions to this post are sick and right on. Like I said on my original post….
“This thread has many ideas and no idea is better than any other idea. I look at it more as one concept can be more efficient or less efficient than another depending on the terrain and conditions”
If anyone can take anything from this post it should be that there is more than one way to skin a cat (not that I have ever skined a cat before) and we should be prepared as coaches to adapt and teach to as many conditions as we can.
My mountain is finally opened with limited terrain and it feels good to actually ride again. The 400ft of verticle at the SSMS although fun was just a big tease.
So, I got a chance to ride some steeps over the weekend (yeah!) and played with several different ways to finish one turn and get into the next. I tired to weight the tail of the board both to scrape some speed and to create a platform to move into the new turn. Whenever I add a traverse in, it seemed to stop my flow down the hill and I’d get stuck (especially on heel side). What seemed to work best for me was to get onto the new edge really early, I mean really early, with a cross-under move; then I had the ability to steer the board through the turn. It really helped me maintain the balance to extend through the turn. The foot of pow didn’t hurt either!
In looking at the posts in this thread I really think the flat spin 360’s might help learn this “lighten to new edge” move.
~ Hope it’s snowing on ya’ll!
one of the biggest problems i see with steeps is edge angle. someone who is traversing or trying to slow down (we are talking about teaching people who are having a hard time) tend to line their bodies up to gravity as a defensive move. in other words they are vertical and the pitch remains steep, making their edge angle super high. this can lead to slipping, chatter, etc. more edge angle also leads to more time in getting over to the next edge change, adding more fear factor.
continuous turns are key, so that the person does not “stand up” and create that huge edge angle. get them comfy doin that on less steep terrain. making “no traverses” and moderate edge angle the primary goals.
hey Jack,
I like the concept of using a low edge angle and how it makes it easier to switch edges on steeps, but doesn’t low edge angle mean you have to apply more pressure to the edge to get the same speed control as a higher edge angle? I also like the idea of hop turns on steeps, that kinda gives you a fast edge switch with a higher edge angle I believe. But like i said, this is all ideas. I’m surprised how much this topic blew up. I personally love steeps, except on the ice.
Swiat
You don’t necessarily need a high edge angle to create edge pressure. Higher edge angles can lead to more “pressure” but it’s when a high edge is skidding that pressure really grows. If you have a high edge angle while your board is perpendicular to the fall line and your skidding you will have lots of edge pressure. Unless you have legs like Conan, that will also hurt. A low edge angle and less slippage when the deck is perpendicular to the fall line will reduce the impact your body needs to endure. A higher edge angle and more slippage through the belly of the turn can get rid of plenty of speed.
The hop turn, although relatively effective, can be very exhausting and on variable conditions is tough to hold an edge on.
I agree that the higher the edge angle, the harder it is to balance. Very few people can stand completely on edge comfortably, and those that can, sry to expand on your idea, but they have legs that make conans legs look like twigs. Balancing on edge is very hard, especially on a lower pitch. But the speed of a higehr pitch gives stability. Kc used the analogy of what size fruit could you fit under your board while on edge, and I think he was right on with that thought. Lower pitch terrain, a grape is about normal, steeper terrain, it might seem like a grape but its more of an orange. The ideas here are all good tho, and conditions, well they are always changing, as we all know as instructors. If we are riding super steeps with about a 10 yard wide trail, the short radius skidded dynamic turns would work best, I would think. but if its wide open, and you can traverse for a mile? Then obviously your riding would change. I’d like to try riding steeps that have wide open like that, never done it before. But getting back on track, instead of making your legs burn by the end of a quarter mile steep, how do we create more pressure without using all of our energy to control the board? Jack is a lvl 3, so I’m kinda thinkin the low edge angle is a very good way to go. Takes less movement to switch edges, and movement is a burn on energy. J was talkin about hoppin edges takes up a lot of energy, which I agree. There are many different concepts here, and at the right time in the right place, all of them will come in handy. I hope this topic keeps going because there are so many different aspects of it that we have yet to cover as professionals. That, and i want skiers to stumble onto this shit and see that we are better at them in discussions.
Swiat
Well, summer is nearing autumn, and its time to get our minds back on track. If riding on steeps is as much fun to everyone else as it is to me, then we should try to find some good spots for demonstrations. Also, on the verbal aspect, no one has commented on much differences between riding packed versus powder. I would prefer to ride steep powder, even though it does kill the back leg, mostly because packed hurts more if you catch an edge. But catching an edge is known to suck. So how do we avoid catching an edge trying to make sharp turns while riding in powder?
Also, on the verbal aspect, no one has commented on much differences between riding packed versus powder. I would prefer to ride steep powder, even though it does kill the back leg, mostly because packed hurts more if you catch an edge. But catching an edge is known to suck. So how do we avoid catching an edge trying to make sharp turns while riding in powder?
Christopher,
Riding powder shouldn’t result in a destroyed back leg. I’d encourage more of a porpoise type movement with the legs/board through the snow (fore/aft and flex/ex) which will distribute the work to both legs and along the length of the board. You can also adjust your set-up and/or use a powder specific board to further spread out the work load.
It would be easier to diagnose a problem if we could see the rider in a video as far as “avoiding catching an edge in powder” goes. But sometimes new powder riders use too much edge angle which makes the board sink - in some situations this is good, but to a new powder rider can be a suprising sensation and cause an edge slam.
The other issue that came to mind is putting too much effort in leaning back on the tail (weighted on the back leg). This can make turn initiation difficult (which results in a straighter line and faster speeds = fear) and cause the rider to use a much larger body movement than desired to get a response from the board. The larger body movement eventually leads to a high edge angle and the already described slam scenario soon follows. Often the rider will feel ‘stuck’ and unable to initiate the turn right before this kind of edge slam happens.
Again the solution is the porpoise style movements. Hope this helps.
