PSIA-AASI

Hi all my name is mike, been teaching for 30ish years, and have taught reverese shoulder,  body rotation,  counter rotation,  wide snowplough,  gliding wedge,  gliding plough, wedge christies,
stem christies,  grund swing,  basic swing,  short swing,  parallel swing,  carving,  scarving, skidded turns,  wide track,  narrow track.  railroad track and many more.
I have taught the austrian, french, british, canadian, and american systems; dabbled a bit with the italian and the new zealand progressions as well. So after all that my question is:-
I have been teaching mostly intermediate to early advanced level for the last few years and clients comming through from many systems all display the same common characteristics leading with the upper body and or fore/aft balance needs.
WHAT ARE WE AS SKI INSTRUCTORS DOING THAT CONSTANTLY PRODUCES THESE FAULTS IN CLIENTS WORLDWIDE AND HOW DO WE CHANGE THINGS

Improperly teaching the wedge…We let the student hunch for or aft so that they are comfortable. They become used to it and it then becomes a habit.

Hi Ross, I agree; accept the rough form to get em moving around the mountain, maybe we should be looking for higher skill levels before moving off the nursery patch

it’s not what is being taught, its what the student is learning to be comfortable after yours or others classes.  it’s the image that they believe is right and that they believe they are preforming.  it’s the belief that in an 90 min lesson you can leave with all you’ll ever need to know about performing that sport.  and if their goal is to go down a low level blue trail, with great snow and conditions and smile at the bottom.

i know how to shot pool, i can play pool, i play pool once or twice a year. i find one shot and take it, then look for the next shot depending where the cue ball ends up.  a good pool player is thinking about the next shot, a great player is thinking about the next 5-6 shots.

with golf (i assume) its the same thing.  the pro during the 60min lesson goes over 5-6 moves all connected, the student 4-5 weeks later remembers 1 move, maybe the start, the finish, the foot work.

Thus, not what we teach but really the learning process of our students, or how they are taught.

just my 2 cents

Thus, not what we teach but really the learning process of our students, or how they are taught.

Great insight Craig, so my question is what can we do to influence the learning process so that our clients progress is smoother without the platau where no learning/improvement seems to take place.
here is an example
bill was taught on day one lesson one to initiate his first turns from sliding in the flow line in a wedge to rotate the whole wedge (both legs) to the left or right and as you mentioned this part of the lesson stuck with him to the point that after 5 or more weeks skiing and progressed towards parallel skiing he still tried to initiate every turn with rotation. Now skiing faster with more pressure and greater edge angles at the end of the turn starting a turn with rotation (of the legs)gets harder and harder and the mass of the upper body is used more and more resulting in progressively more extreme upper body movements and more extreme loss of balance. this guy has reached the point of giving up skiing, he feels its not for him, he ca’nt get it right no matter how hard he tries, in fact the harder he tries the worse he seems to get. He will not be buying any ski equipment or new ski clothing, will not book ski holidays, not spend money in ski resorts nor buy a lift pass or book ski lessons, neither will his family or the friends he influences; a complete and unnecessary loss to our industry
I do’nt have the complete answer but Craig I think you may have opened the door a little it needs us as a community of ski instructurs to share any ideas we might have to help keep our industry alive and healthy.

in the beginner world…..station teaching..signup and use all day, all month on the beginner slope.

intermediate lessons sign up once…two lesson minimum second good at any mountain (will never happen)

one season I taught the intermediates..we offered coupon off for next day…I had lots of returns back on Sunday, some even brought friends, but the mountain could make as much or more by selling 1 hr private.

bash ASC all you want (I don’t mean you, but our industry members) but their 3 day learning program was the best….but there wasn’t a good 3000 mile checkup, after the 3 day program.

a lot of mountains have trouble getting their instructors to take FREE clinics, so it maybe more culture then price and promotion.

just some thoughts

Wow Mike, when you point out all that you have taught over the years we can all add one or two things to that list. How much of it did/do we need. I mean really! Not that any of it is silly or faulty, but when you list it all out the way you did, I was visualizing all of the movements patterns and ski/snow interaction goals that we have come across and wondering if I can do some of that:)

I am a part time pro for the last 18 years and I am trying to wonder who’s goals are we going for in the lesson format. Whether it is PSIA/USSA/PMTS/Ski Doctors/you name it, they all seem to have a semblance of “how to do it”.  I am thinking that it takes more than learning to ski proficiently/efficiently on the technology of the day. While I am always working toward that end myself and with my clients, there has to be more.

We are in the business of adding dimension to the lives of others. Make them better skiers, make them have fun, make them push their comfort zones, make them think about what they want, not just in skiing, but in life really. We are in the business of creating lifelong passion for the mountain experience. That sounds like a tag line… but it is not enough to just ski proficiently, one has to enjoy it on many levels.

I certainly don’t have a formula for it, Weems’ Sports Diamond is certainly a nice guideline, but as soon as we move past the skiing and into the life of the skier, I think your business will grow.

Nothing against growing your business, for if you don’t, you won’t be there for your clients. They need you more that you or they may know.

Just thinking out loud.

Thanks for the topic

Greg Luce
PSIA-NW

I believe the answer may develop from the question in the initial post:
“WHAT ARE WE AS SKI INSTRUCTORS DOING THAT CONSTANTLY PRODUCES THESE FAULTS IN CLIENTS…”
To me, the question has a false premise, and thus not really possible to answer.  False because in the vast majority of cases students don’t dedicate themselves to lessons and thus we don’t have the opportunity to get them on the right track.

For example, most intermediate students are self-taught or friend-taught from the beginning, or only took one L1 intro lesson, and then they come for lessons as intermediates. In the gap, they develop the bad habits - it is not because of something we do in lessons that produces these results, rather that we don’t have the opportunity to prevent them in the first place.

I don’t believe instructors are doing something wrong.  We have the training, skills, dedication and passion to teach properly.  If we can work with them enough in the earlier stages to establish the correct habits, posture, etc, they will progress quicker with good technique, and enjoy the sport more.

I would thus posit that the question might be put this way:  What can we as instructors and an organization do to better develop in our students a sense of commitment to the education process and a sense of value and benefit of doing so?  Are we providing sufficient value to keep them returning?  Are the prices too high for the perceived sense of value received?  Are we engaging them in a fun way that brings them back? These ideas of course are not mine, they’ve been stated by many fellow members and published in the newsletter and etc.  But I believe they better suggest a perspective on the condition’s causes and solutions.

Kurt, L3, NW division

It’s all about marketing of lessons, skier visits and recognition of what’s fun.

Nobody learns to play the piano by taking a lesson and practicing one week a year.  But if you enjoy chopsticks-type occasional performance, you have fun “playing”.

The occasional skier cannot expect—and we cannot guide him/her—to gain “expert” ability.

Only if we/the industry encourage greater participation will we see skill improvement in the general skier population.

Given an enthusiastic repeat customer, we can—and do—see reduction of self-learned bad habits and gains in good skills development.

A few interesting points have come up in these posts.  As I am beginning to get the itch for the ski season, I thought I would add my thoughts.

To answer the original question of what instructors are doing wrong to cause bad movements, or to answer the second question of what can we do to get customers to take more lessons, we need to ask yet another question.  What does the customer want?

I think that as instructors, we all say that the most important thing in skiing is to have fun.  While we all say that, I don’t think that any of us feel that it is true for ourselves.  As ski instructors, we are constantly looking to be a better skier, and be able to see what others are doing wrong.  I think that the majority of the people out there in the world that feel the way that we do about skiing are also in the industry (instructor, patrol, mountain guide…).  Therefore, the vast majority of public that we teach actually have a different goal.

The success of our industry does not depend on filling every mountain with the best possible skiers, which is what I think the majority of us try to do.  The success of our industry depends on filling every mountain with people. (emphasis on the period).  People that enjoy skiing will come back, bottom line.

When it comes down to it, there is no wrong way to ski as long as you are in control of yourself.  Just because someone has a small wedge at the beginning of a turn, or ends a turn in the back seat does not mean that they are skiing wrong.  They might not be skiing the best, or most efficient way, but they are not skiing wrong.  Most of those people can make it down all of the terrain that they want to in a very safe manner.  Who cares what it looks like?  No one is going to kick them off the mountain for it.

When people come for a lesson, it is because they want something specific out of it.  It may be that they want to be able to ski longer without getting sore legs, or being able to ski steeper terrain or maybe just to be told that they are doing ok.  As someone already mentioned, we need to find out more about the customer then where their balance is at the end of the turn.  We need to find out their goal for taking the lesson.  Regardless of whether we make their skiing conform to the mold that we try to attain for ourselves, if we satisfy their goal then they will come back.  This means that sometimes you teach a breaking wedge to get someone down the hill, if their goal is to get down the hill and they are struggling with everything else.  It can mean that you don’t make someone change from all rotary to all edging if there is a way to just tweak the current movement patterns to make skiing a little easier and keep the person on the mountain.

Therefore, lets answer the question i posed, “What does the customer want?”.  The customer wants you to help them attain THEIR goal, not your goal.  If the customer skis in the back seat all the time, and that is not an issue in attaining their goal, then don’t worry about it and just do your best to get them to THEIR goal.  I think this also answers the original question of what instructors are doing wrong.  Instructors tend to disregard the customers goals and teach for their own goals.  If what they are teaching, the customer doesn’t want to learn then the customer wont learn it and will continue to ski “wrong”.

Josh
LVL III
PSIA-E

Who do you think has more fun on the mountain, a lvl II ski instructor practicing for a lvl III exam or a 12 year old kid going down a blue hill in a wedge with their friends?

Good thoughs josh and all as well. I think every examiner out there reading this has a real good idea for an answer to the question. For me, Skiing is a balanceing game. you are moveing in tandum with boards stuck to your feet. “Stand” on your feet as much as possiable. just as you would stand on your feet with out boards on your feet. Standing up while in motion. There is your fore aft problem. Either go with it and ski “fore” it., because that is what skiing is. To me. Or be hesitant and ski hesitantly in the aft. Each student has ones own sense of comfort. This can only come from within. As well as coaxed out. Ultimately from within. I like to teach that one should use your feet and understand your sense of balance just like you did walking from your car. Don’t try to use your skis to ski. Use what you already know. Stand on your feet and slide. It’s fun and you can also turn. here’s how…. Get people to use the simple gifts they already have. Balance. Add motion and we have all seen the results… Useing the equipment to compensate for not using balance. Teach folks to stand up and simply ski.
The other part of the question; Using your upper body to rotate ones skis. Thats an adjustment in perception. When we are going slowly certain rules pertain. as speed increases the rules (foreaft anticapation, pressure increases, rotation is a matter if inertia, edging is an art etc..) changes. Advanceing skiers don’t know this. What worked in a wedge christy at 2 mph on blue terrain. Doesn’t work at 15 mph on the same slope. This is were as stated above, balance must come first!!! You cannot apply the rules (Tactics and skills blending) to any part of skiing if one is not standing up and balanceing on ones feet! skiing. A change in perception being the perceived notion that all stays the same as speed, pitch, texture, etc.. change. “This is were we as instructors come in”. WE are very important in this matter. Results bring back customers. We know the rules. What works and what doesn’t, according to the present situation. This is what we play with every day. At least I do. We make instant changes according to our perception of our feelings. Teach tactics. Teach fun. Using the word rules lightly ..Teach rules. the cans and can’t for each perception of a change needing to occur in order to stay in BALANCE! As Josh stated above Help the student to reach their goals for the lesson. I bet 95% of the time these to simple ideas 1) balance, (ski with your feet) and 2) rules, tactics, Skill blending, with help reach those goals of “I want to ...” for each student. Teach what we as expert skiers are good at. Balance in motion and blending. Don’t teach methods.

I am fairly new to teaching especially compared to the most active members of the forum.  As such, I also spent a lot of time last season in the beginner bowl teaching group lessons. 

The fact of the matter is that in the beginner bowl we don’t have you.  We have new instructors and part time instructors but rarely do we have highly experienced instructors.  Most new instructors are not trained to look at how the habits we are promoting will affect the skier years down the road because we don’t study that evolution - but you do.

In order for my teaching to improve the most I had to attend clinics, talk to experienced instructors, study, etc but none of these were resources available to me in the beginner bowl.  If somehow we could find a way to encourage the mingling and exchange of ideas between experienced instructors and new instructors on the bunny hill I think we could greatly improve the evolution of an individuals skiing.

I have taught East to West. One of my best friends owned a small Midwest ski area. He told me once, he was also an instructor in the West, these guests are not skiers, instructors are skiers, and the sooner instructors understand that the sooner the guest is going to have fun and maybe, hopefully return to have more fun and maybe want to learn more.

Over the years I have decided the level of the class determines how I approach what I teach. A new skier it is what works and gives them a lot of fun, Level 3 probably refining movements and changing of habits developed from the Level 1-2 etc. to allow them to just have fun. etc.

If it is not fun why do it? Does that mean teach wrong movements? No! It does mean teach fun and what works and as they decide this is fun and they want more information, feed them what they want and can handle while they are in movement/skiing. Maybe they will become skiers or maybe they will stay recreationalists but so.

Bottom line, maybe we aren’t teaching wrong, we are just teaching what works for the guest allowing them to have fun so just maybe we can bring our guests back to the slopes where one day they may become skiers or then again they may just keep having fun with what they do.

Maybe you will even understand what my friend told me and what I am trying to say.

Another “fault” many of us have is trying to move our guests/students along too quickly. Someone may have mentioned this already, if so sorry! As a Children’s program Supervisor I’m constantly frustrated by instructors moving students up to more difficult terrain, after they have introduced a new skill, without any ownership-sometimes the coaches. It can be pretty boring on the bunny hill and I’m always preaching that “If you’re not having fun, neither are your students”! I come up with easy balancing things and such. Ham it up and have fun!

Mike - 24 July 2009 02:02 PM

Hi all my name is mike, been teaching for 30ish years, and have taught reverese shoulder,  body rotation,  counter rotation,  wide snowplough,  gliding wedge,  gliding plough, wedge christies,
stem christies,  grund swing,  basic swing,  short swing,  parallel swing,  carving,  scarving, skidded turns,  wide track,  narrow track.  railroad track and many more.
I have taught the austrian, french, british, canadian, and american systems; dabbled a bit with the italian and the new zealand progressions as well. So after all that my question is:-
I have been teaching mostly intermediate to early advanced level for the last few years and clients comming through from many systems all display the same common characteristics leading with the upper body and or fore/aft balance needs.
WHAT ARE WE AS SKI INSTRUCTORS DOING THAT CONSTANTLY PRODUCES THESE FAULTS IN CLIENTS WORLDWIDE AND HOW DO WE CHANGE THINGS

When preparing to teach we arm ourselves with a bag of tricks. We try to match these tricks to our students to gain an outcome. For adept students the tricks don’t matter so much as every thing works for them. It’s the challenged students who we need to find the right match of skills and terrain to help them achieve their goals. Sometimes what you get isn’t perfect but you do your best to give a student tools to get down the hill with. It may not be pretty and lack technical perfection but most skiers will go through an unproductive exploration of ‘bad’ technique. It may work temporarily and if it’s fun who’s to say what’s right for everyone? These are the students who benefit most from the learning partnership and need a trusting relationship with their instructor.

Tonja,

You make a good point that in the US, the experienced instructors tend not to be in the beginners area.  In Europe, the emphasis is on teaching new skiers correctly and you will even see ex-FIS racers teaching the kids and beginners instead of waiting around hoping for an advanced lesson.  If you notice, Europeans as a whole are better skiers than Americans… I wonder if there is a correlation

Here are my words of wisdom to you.  If there is one truth in ski instructing, it is that ski instructors love to talk… and teach.  Are you familiar with the old joke, “When you walk in to a bar how can you tell who is a ski instructor?.... They will tell you!”.  On a day that is not too busy, ask one of the better instructors at your mountain to go out with you for a lesson.  Take turns teaching so that you can see their style and they can see yours.  Then buy that person a beer at the end of the day and talk about the lesson.  I can guarantee you that the more experienced instructors at your mountain will be more than willing to impart their knowledge on you in the beginners bowl as long as you ask… and buy them the beer.

I will give you my personal opinion on why this problem occurs (the lack of experienced instructor help).  In my experience when people learn anything they go through several stages.
Stage I - Not knowing anything and knowing that they don’t know anything
Stage II - Knowing a little bit and thinking that they more than they do
Stage III - Knowing a little bit, confident they know a lot and not easily willing to learn more
Stage IV - Knowing a good amount, realizing that they know very little in the big picture
Stage V - Knowing exactly what they know and don’t know and always looking to learn from anyone

I believe that a lot of ski instructors get stuck around Stage II and III where they think they know much more than they do and are not willing to learn from others.  These people tend to get very defensive when you critique them and also don’t listen to what you share with them.  These people are also the ones that are going out and giving the most advice so that they can prove to themselves that they know more than others.  Now, to get to the latter stages, you have to go through these… therefore I will readily admit that I was one of those annoying people for a year or two… maybe more depending on who you ask.  However, once you get past it and realize that there is a whole lot that you don’t know, you shut your mouth and start learning again.  Therefore, once you have the knowledge to share with others, you don’t have to prove that you know it by telling other people constantly and you realize that most of the people that you would give unsolicited advice to are not going to listen anyways.  The end result is the most experienced people will only help you out when you ask… and the only people who ask are those that are brand new and those that are also experienced.

Long story short, if you want to learn then don’t be afraid to ask for anything you think will help you learn better (asking experienced instructors to take some spare time in the beginner pit).  If you are going around giving unsolicited advice then zip up the old flapper and start learning again.  If someone gives you advice, listen.  It might not be correct, or wanted, but at least think about it and maybe you will pick up something or learn something from it.  Confucius say.. “Nobody is so good that there is nothing they can not learn.  Likewise, no one is so bad that there is nothing that they can teach”.

- Josh